Posts by Cold Steel

8

Jehovah God and Jesus Christ the difference in the "Old Testament " and the "New Testament"

by smiddy in

when you compare all the communications jehovah god had with humans whether it was by angels ,dreams ,or prophets as well as his intervention in human affairs when it suited him and their are many examples in the old testament to look at for about 4000 years .

the same cannot be said for jesus christ as king of kings to sit on the throne to rule over the earth for a thousand years.

in one sense he was king of christians 2000 years ago in another sense according to jw`s he was enthroned in 1914-18 for the next 1000 years.. whether you believe he was king over christians on his ascencion to heaven or his enthronement in 1914-18 for 2000 + years we have not had any communication from either god jehovah or christ jesus in any form one way or another.for the past 2000 years.. for the first 4000 years you couldnt shut jehovah up ,and the next 2000 years you dont here a beep out of jehovah or christ jesus.. for jw apologists when god gave a ruling/decree in the old testament how many times did he adjust /redefine/change what he said using the excuse "the light gets brighter and brighter" ?

Cold Steel

And how did Jesus contradict Yahweh?

8

Jehovah God and Jesus Christ the difference in the "Old Testament " and the "New Testament"

by smiddy in

when you compare all the communications jehovah god had with humans whether it was by angels ,dreams ,or prophets as well as his intervention in human affairs when it suited him and their are many examples in the old testament to look at for about 4000 years .

the same cannot be said for jesus christ as king of kings to sit on the throne to rule over the earth for a thousand years.

in one sense he was king of christians 2000 years ago in another sense according to jw`s he was enthroned in 1914-18 for the next 1000 years.. whether you believe he was king over christians on his ascencion to heaven or his enthronement in 1914-18 for 2000 + years we have not had any communication from either god jehovah or christ jesus in any form one way or another.for the past 2000 years.. for the first 4000 years you couldnt shut jehovah up ,and the next 2000 years you dont here a beep out of jehovah or christ jesus.. for jw apologists when god gave a ruling/decree in the old testament how many times did he adjust /redefine/change what he said using the excuse "the light gets brighter and brighter" ?

Cold Steel

Smiddy » For the first 4000 years you couldnt shut Jehovah up, and the next 2000 years you dont here a beep out of Jehovah or Christ Jesus.

Actually, while your point is valid, the above isn't the case at all. There were many long stretches where God didn't speak. As I noted elsewhere, when Gabriel appeared to Zachariah, the father of John the Baptist, and told him his elderly wife was going to have a son, it had been more than 400 years since God had spoken. There were many false prophets over the years, and they spoke frequently; however, real prophets came along only when it was necessary, and for the benefit of the people.

Also, the early Christians believed that Jesus was Jehovah. They viewed Jehovah as being the Son of God and the great Mediator between God and Man. When Moses and his people "saw the God of Israel," and when Moses spoke to God "face to face," (see Exodus 28 and 33), they were not speaking about God the Father. Moses wasn't the great Mediator between God and Man -- it was Yahweh, the Son of the Father.

Matthew tells us of a lamentation made by Jesus while he was yet in mortality:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

This clearly doesn't apply to the thirty two years he had lived in mortality. Many of those years he most likely didn't know himself who he had been in premortality. Plus, in his lifetime he had more miracles, and there were many more angelic visits and laws given than at any other time in history. Jesus began his church, gave detailed instructions on how it should be run and after his resurrection spent 40 days giving his disciples special instructions, none of which the JWs have any inkling of. Then Paul speaks of going to the third heaven and seeing and hearing things it wasn't lawful to repeat, again which the Governing Body knows nothing about.

For JW apologists when God gave a ruling/decree in the Old Testament how many times did he adjust /redefine/change what he said using the excuse "the light gets brighter and brighter"?

NONE
And yet JW`s would have you believe God has been continuously doing this for the past 100 years not being able to give a precise or concise direction that didnt need to be changed after a couple of years.

Absolutely. If God spoke anciently when he wanted to do something, it shows God was an active force in accomplishing his will. "For ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you," Jesus told his apostles. And in the Old Testament, God told Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee. And before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Yet now, in the last days, God has decided to change from active to passive. The church forms first, then the Lord comes out and selects them. Anciently God speaks to man and man complies; now man speaks and God complies! But while it's a great setup if you can get it all worked out, there is the problem of God never changing. In the past, God was visible when he appeared. Now he's invisible when he comes.

It's also strange that the saints are now called "Witnesses" when they really haven't seen or heard anything. "Well, what are you witnesses of?" Answer: nothing, really, because everything was invisible! His coming, his being appointed King, his selection of a publishing company as his divine will. And instead of being chosen and ordained, they choose God and ordain themselves!

Active versus passive. And they've never explained that aspect of their foundation.

23

God’s silence teaches more than what the “revealed scriptures” do!

by anointed1 in

objective reading of scriptures can see many human thoughts in them.

objective analysis of religions would show that they exist primarily for their own benefit.

is science too travelling in the same direction?

Cold Steel

So why do you assume God is silent?

When Zachariah, the Father of John the Baptist, was in the temple, an angel appeared and told the old man that his elderly wife was going to have a son. Before the appearance, there had been no recorded word from God in 400+ years. And the first thing Zachariah did was question the angel's authority! So the angel struck Zachariah dumb as a sign that he was of God.

The wickedness of the people caused the long period of apostasy, and in less than 35 years they had crucified the Messiah and John had been murdered. It didn't take long for the Christians of that day to begin replacing their appointed leaders and again their was a long reign of silence.

Paul had prophesied that in the last days, man's learning would be greatly accelerated. I just finished watching RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP (which took place in 1942). The U.S. submarines were rust buckets, yet they were running all over the Pacific. And twenty years later we had nukes, any one of which could have single handedly won the war. Weaponry, speed, ability to stay submerged, size, depth and, of course, expense -- the advances have been incredible.

Air, land, sea and space, the advances have been unreal. I'm not a supporter of Glenn Beck by any means, but the Book he recommends -- The Five Thousand Year Leap -- is a book I found fascinating. We hit a certain point and technology just exploded.

So no one really knows that God is silent. Presently it's moot.

11

How clean is Heaven?

by pleaseresearch in

so when i think of the word heaven.

i see angels, clouds and harp players.

but in reality when we think about it, for thousands of years it's been occupied by the devil himself and his demons.

Cold Steel

The early views of the church is far different than what most think. I was reading an address by Dr. Hugh Nibley that delved into this in a paper on what some of the earliest Christians believed based on early extra-biblical accounts. Here is an excerpt:

The first thing to get clear, when we start talking about other worlds, is that we know nothing about them. It comes only by revelation. These things are not the extent or the projection of our own scientific world or literary experience, and not the production of our own imagination. Those who have seen other worlds in vision tell us that we simply cannot imagine what they are like.
Remember what Paul said after he talked about going to the third heaven: I can talk about one who was caught up. I've seen those things. And what about it? "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man." Nobody has seen anything like it. Nobody has heard anything like it. You can't imagine what it is like -- it has not "entered into the heart of man." So you shouldn't try to make yourself a picture of what heaven is like. You'll be completely wrong. And that's good, because I don't want it to be more of the same, more of this. It would be an awful bore, wouldn't it?
The Pistis Sophia: "Other worlds cannot possibly be described in terms of this world. Not only is there less in common between other worlds and this world, they differ as widely among themselves as any of them does from us."
"In the limited confines of the flesh," the new and valuable writing of James explains, "which condition all our thinking, we can't possibly grasp the nature of other existences or even begin to count the number of other worlds.
"We are necessarily prone to think in terms of our world. Of course we can't think in any other terms. We haven't the remotest idea of what it's like. We use the words we do because we don't have any others. As St. Augustine says, "This is the wrong picture I have given you, but at least it's a picture." (lmpar imago, sed imago.)
"When we say Light," says the Sophia Christi, "we think of our kind of light. "But that's wrong. When we say marriage, for example, in the other world, it'll be entirely different from what it is here, though of course we must designate earthly and heavenly marriage by the same name. Even though spirits may be eternal and thus equal in age, this writing explains, they differ in intelligence, in appearance, and in other things. And these differences are primary, as unbegotten as the spirits themselves. It is not something that's acquired. We are just different, primary and unbegotten, and no two alike.
The Lord tells the Apostles in the Epistle of the Apostles, "Where my Father is, is entirely different from this world. There you will see lights that are nobler than your kind of light. In the millions of worlds that God has made for his son, every world is different from the others and wonderful in its own radiance." Quoting the Odes of Solomon: "Hence, one of the joys of existence is that the worlds constantly exchange with each other what they have, each possessing don't see two faces alike here." Isn't it marvelous. No two alike. "Vive la difference!"
"In the Hebrew Universe," writes Pederson, "the world consists of a number oF lives that are intermixed but can never become merged because each has its special character. Individuals remain forever themselves." Among ten thousand times ten thousand worlds, says the Ginza, you will find no two alike.
A prayer from the Mandaean Prayer Book reads, "Before this world there were already a thousand thousand mysteries and a myriad myriad planets, each with its own mysteries." The multiplicity of worlds, as taught by the Early Church, formed a perfect unity as do the strings of a lyre. Each plays a different note; together they make marvelous harmony. If two strings play the same note, there is not much point to that. There must be a great orchestration. This is a common idea among the ancients. Plotinus taught that each star existed for the sake of the whole, to which it contributed its individuality. Each has its particular part to play; by being uniquely itself it can make a contribution of maximum value.
There is the great difference, and among the differences there is a hierarchy. Some are greater than others. That is the concept of the three degrees of glory. The one thing they all have in common is that there are three main degrees. "You can visit the orders below you," says the Pistis Sophia, "but not the level or orders above you."
The three degrees are described in a great number of manuscripts. Ignatius, writing to the Trallians, says the same thing. Ignatius was the last church father who knew the mysteries of the church; the Saints have asked him to tell them about some of these mysteries and the levels of other worlds.
And this is what he says in reply: "I could write to you about the mysteries of the heavens, but I am afraid to do so. It would do you harm. I am able to understand the orders of the heavens, the degrees of the angels, the variations among them, and the differences of dominions, of thrones and powers, and of the elevation of the Holy Ghost and of the kingdom of the Lord, and the highest of all rules of God over everything else. There is an infinity of hierarchy in the world." But he died and took his knowledge with him. "You're not ready for it yet," he said, "and the Church is not going to have it." An early hymn says, "Christ rules in second place. His rule exactly duplicates the Father's but over a more limited number of cosmoses." Methodius explains this, he being in my opinion the last church father to correlate what stuff remained of the concept. He says, "If other stars are greater than our world, then it is necessary that they contain life greater than ours, and greater peace, and greater justice, and greater virtue than ours."

13

undeserved kindness vs. grace

by nowwhat? in

undeserved kindness means- you puny humans are irredemable and worthless, but because i am such a benevolent and magnanimous god.

i give you a way for salvation.

but you better keep working day in and day out for the rest of your miserable lives and perhaps i'll save you on my day of wrath.

Cold Steel

The Watchtower takes the fragments of what is known regarding the purpose of man, fills in what is not known, then expects its followers to make sense of it. If God had absolute power to do anything, as many sectarian assume (but which the Bible doesn't say), why did it take Him seven "days" to complete the earth? Why didn't He just "speak" the earth into existence with merely a thought? And if He had limitless power, why did He not just forgive mankind without there having to be an atonement? It's clear from scripture that, if true, we're not being given the complete picture.

17

Mr Trump looked in the Bible to see what's God view on "Torture"

by James Mixon in

guess what, first book of the bible genesis 3:16 and he found other books that condones torture, exodus 7:3, numbers 31:17,18 and many more in that book.

so trump thought i have god's blessing..

Cold Steel

DJS » Most all of what Simon has said I have said many times on this site. Unchecked immigration can't be absorbed by any country on an ongoing basis. The US has been more than patient, generous and benevolent.

Yes, and the U.S. has major problem with population. Not too many people, but not enough to sustain the baby boomers who are expecting to get their Social Security, Medicare and other entitlements.

That said, Europe let in thousands of Muslim refugees and they have repaid their kindness by kicking their benefactors in the teeth: by posting their own rules based on Sharia Law, tearing down and threatening violence over Christmas decorations and overturning cars and setting them on fire. Is this something we need here?

We need Mexican influx because most are already Christian, they're hard working, and the ones I knew in southern California kept their Christmas lights on all year round. They had great food, too. So, who would I rather invest in? Hmmmm.

Mexicans. Any day. And even if we get good Muslims into the U.S., many times their children and grandchildren are radicalized. Many are good people, but we don't have a way of vetting them or telling who will decide to buy a gun and take out people at a shopping center. If we can keep the drug dealers out of the country, we can do okay with Mexican immigrants.

Besides, I don't want to give up my guns or my Christmas lights because some idiot decides to go jihad down the line. JWs don't like Christmas decorations, either, but they don't go out and kill people (unless they need blood transfusions!).

17

Mr Trump looked in the Bible to see what's God view on "Torture"

by James Mixon in

guess what, first book of the bible genesis 3:16 and he found other books that condones torture, exodus 7:3, numbers 31:17,18 and many more in that book.

so trump thought i have god's blessing..

Cold Steel

Simon » Wait, you think Trump can read?

Well, I can, and none of the scriptures cited has anything to do with torture. Genesis 3:16 has to do with the divine decree regarding women and child birth. There is not a single scripture in the Bible having to do with torture.

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3)

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Mr. Trump will have to search further if these are the verses he came up with.

210

Morality Without Deity

by cofty in

one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

Cold Steel

Cofty » I want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality. It is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality. Christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.

But can't it be argued that none of these moralities exist in the absence of a God? Or that all morality in the absence of God is subjective? The problem is, there has to be standards to determine morality. There also has to be consequences, which holds morality together.

Can mankind establish a secular set of standards of morality? That's difficult. Anciently, Balaam told Balak, king of a Canaan people, that the only way to curse Israel was to lead them into wickedness. He himself had tried to curse Israel several times, but when he tried to curse Israel, only blessings came out. So, greedy for Balak's promised gratity, he told Balak the only way to destroy Israel was to destroy it from within. It worked, but when Israel eventually defeated Balak's military, they found Balaam, dragged him from a tent and killed him with a sword.

The same has happened today. Abortion, homosexuality, fornication (and soon to be paedophilia) -- all are excluded from man's objective immorality. Yet they will defile and destroy a nation as if there was no code of morality. Jesus noted that even the wicked love their families. He might also said they fight for their countries, refrain from stealing, be good and loyal friends. Certainly the Caananites didn't consider themselves evil, even when engaging in disgusting sexual practices and sacrificing their children to Moloch. So Christian morality will never be atheist or secular morality.

Yes, so-called Christianity murdered millions, but it was an apostate Christianity. Secular Nazism and communism murdered many more. Yet each had its own ethics quite removed from true Christianity.

28

A problem for believers

by Bugbear in

a problem for believers!.

a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.

they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.

Cold Steel

Bugbear » A majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior God or in their creator. They also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law. None of these religious people can however [prove] that their God actual exists.

Religion isn't about proof. But it doesn't preclude evidence, either. I've found when I offer people evidence about religious things, they reject it. As someone once said, when someone asks for evidence, you can be sure evidence is the last thing they're interested in. It's the nature of every religious believer (and this includes atheists, who have a religious conviction as deep as any fundamentalist). People have their own beliefs and many adopt the religion they were born into. I believe that only by seeking God can one find him. But when it comes to proving there is no God, I've seen no evidence to do that. One can say, "I don't believe there's a God," but one cannot say they know God does not exist.

In the Bible, religion is based on people who said they saw God. Moses saw God, he said, and spoke face to face with him. Then seventy of the elders of Israel saw him. In my own religion, our own leaders have claimed to see him, and had the mininstration of angels. If my church leaders said (as do the Governing Body) that they had not heard from God, I wouldn't have anything to do with them. What good to me would they be?

If my church was a one man band, it would be one thing. But there are many prophets who to this day claim to communicate with God.

18

7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs

by fukitol in

jw
friends

the sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.

increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.

Cold Steel

Although JWs and SDAs are both adventist sects, the LDS and SDAs are the results of alleged communication with heaven. The JWs and SDAs have similar doctrines because they come from common roots. As the paper noted, not surprisingly, the membership numbers of Mormons rose as the number of missionaries increased. At the same time, membership is declining in Europe while increasing in Central and South America, partially, no doubt, because of the Book of Mormon's alleged roots in these countries, and the decline of all religions in the face of secular atheism in Europe. This increase in atheism already is beginning to seep into American population centers.